Shay ([info]telecart) wrote,
@ 2007-04-29 03:13:00
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Higher Education
Someone from my Cognition & Perception class had the temerity to send an e-mail to all the students in our class suggesting that we say a big "fuck you" to this ridiculous strike and please, come study.
Naturally, he was bombarded (with all the mailinglist along with him) with quasi-socialist bumper-sticker-slogans about solidarity and how he should allow them to strike while at the same time demanding that he not be allowed to study.
To this I replied the following, cut for Hebrew (sorry):

 


חבריי לספסל,

"שביתה" מוגדרת כסכסוך עבודה בין מועסקים ומעסיקים, בדרך כלל בין התאחדות עובדים לבעלי הון.
מערכת היחסים שבין ציבור הסטודנטים והאוניברסיטה איננה כזו, ואף איננה אנלוגית לכזו, לכן תמוהה בעיניי הדרישה שלכם לסולידריות בעניין ה"שביתה", שכן אין כאן בעל הון שנפגע כתוצאה מהשביתה ושלא ייפגע אם חלק מהציבור (בעלי "תודעה כוזבת" כפי שיקראו להם מארקסיסטים) יחליט "לשבור" אותה. ציבור של סטודנטים שאיננו מגיע לאוניברסיטה איננו פוגע באוניברסיטה בטווח הקצר, ויתרה מזו, אין זה כלל בכוונות המאבק לפגוע באוניברסיטה ממילא. היחידים הנפגעים באופן ישיר מה"שביתה" הם אנחנו, שכן כבר שילמנו על השעורים הללו, וכאמור קיים סיכוי לא-בלתי-סביר שהשיעורים הללו לא יושלמו לנו (ואף אם יושלמו, ודאי ישנו לנו תוכניות לקיץ), וכיו"ב.

בעצם, מה שאתם מבקשים הוא המשך הסולדיריות בפגיעה בסטודנטים, כפי שדורשים ראשי המאבק.

לא אכביר במילים עד כמה לטעמי המאבק הזה מתנהל בצורה שאין לי איך לתארה מלבד "ילדותית", אבל אני חושב שנהיר לכל שהמשך קיומה מותנה בהמשך "השביתה" וזה, חברים, לא פלטפורמה שעל גבה מתנוסס מאבק חברתי אמיתי. לו היינו רציניים וכנים ב"מאבקנו", היינו מוכנים לעשות זאת גם תוך כדי שמתקיימים שיעורים. ויתור על כלי ה"שביתה" (שכבר ביססנו שאיננו פוגע באיש מלבד הציבור הנאבק) איננו אמור להאט את המומנטום של המחאה, לו זו נבעה מרוח מחאה אמיתית.

בכלל, מגוכח בעיניי שהדגל אותו מנסים לנופף בסיפור הזה הוא דגל חברתי; איפה היו כל האנשים האלה כששמענו על אמהות חד-הוריות שלוקחים להם ממעט הכסף שהמדינה הזרימה להן, הגימלאים במצוקה, עובדי רשויות מקומיות שלא שילמו להם חודשים רבים, ניצולי שואה רעבים ללחם וכו'. אני מבקש אותכם, תסתכלו בראי ותענו לי, האם לא הייתם מוכנים לשלם עוד איזשהו סכום כל שנה ללימודים, ובתנאי שלא יהיו ניצולי שואה רעבים בארץ? האם באמת בראש סדר העדיפויות החברתי במדינה עלות ההשכלה הגבוהה בישראל? האם אתם מודעים לכך שגם לרשום ילד לגן עולה בין 700-1500 ש"ח לחודש? האם עלות ההשכלה ה"נמוכה" לא "חמור" יותר מעלות ההשכלה הגבוהה?

למען גילוי נאות, מודה אני שמלכתחילה לא הזדהיתי ואינני מזדהה עם מטרות המאבק הזה. יש לי חילוקיי דעות עקרוניים עם מארגני המאבק לגבי טבעה הרצוי של מערכת ההשכלה הגבוהה בישראל (מי שמעוניין, סיכם את דעותיי טוב מכפי שאי פעם אוכל לנסח אותם בעצמי צ'רלס מוריי, מחבר "עקומת הפעמון" במאמר דיעה המצ"ב), שלא לדבר על הסמכות הניתנת להם להיאבק בשמי ובשם ציבור סטודנטים גדול שלא שייך לאגודת הסטודנטים או שאינו נוטל חלק בפעילות אגודת הסטודנטים כגון הבחירות לאגודה, או שסתם איננו סבור שאותם האנשים שהוא הסמיך לדאוג לו למכונות צילום זולות הוא כמשתמע מכך אותם האנשים שהוסמכו להיאבק בשמו פוליטית עם אידיאולוגיה הלקוחה היישר ממדבקות פגוש וטוקבקים בויינט.

כולנו מסכימים שמצב ההשכלה הגבוהה בישראל דורש שינוי. זו הסיבה שהוקמה וועדת שוחט מלכתחילה. אז בואו נשמע מה היא מציעה, בואו נשתף איתה פעולה ונביע במסגרתה את החששות שלנו במקום לפסול אותה על הסף טרם הגישה את מסקנותיה ולפני שאיזושהי ממשלה קיבלה את מסקנותיה והחליטה לפעול על פיהם. אם זה לא ימצא חן באיננו אז, אני מבטיח שתמיד יהיה אפשר למחות על כך.

מקווה לראותכם,

שי


I'm tired of being hijacked.

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[info]le_futurisme
2007-04-29 03:32 am UTC (link)
quoi?

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[info]telecart
2007-04-29 01:05 pm UTC (link)
Heh, cute.

The gist of it is that there is a "student strike" going on. Meaning, students do not go to university, until The prime minister agrees to meet with the student union body and give in to some ridiculous demands regarding the cost of higher education (much cheaper than in the states, but obviously not free like in Europe), and disbanding of a bipartisan committee that is investigating options for reform in higher education, because they are - supposedly - going to suggest to raise the cost of higher education.
Even if that were true, and that the government accepted the recommendations of this committee (which, again, has not finished it's work) - these things normally take years to implement. Not to mention that the SBU has 4 out of 9 places in the subcommittee devoted to the cost of higher education, and their representatives have consistently boycotted the committee, and have also refused to meet with the education minister, and will only see the prime minister.

Basically, they're acting very childishly.

What I'm suggesting to my fellow classmates is that a "strike" is defined as a labor dispute between employees and an employer. This is not the relationship between the university and it's students, nor is it analogous in any significant way. There is no wealthy industrialist losing money because we are not showing up for school. The only person losing money would be us, because we've already paid for these classes. We are not "false consciousnesses" for wanting an education we're entitled too.

Therefore, what these people are really suggesting is solidarity in hurting students, nothing more.

I then digress into how ridiculous it is that this struggle is presented under a socialist flag, when quite clearly it is motivated by narrow political interests within the SBU. Where were these people when single-working-mothers lost their government subsidiaries? Where were they when pensioners lost money? What are they doing with the fact that there are holocaust survivors in Israel living under the poverty line?
I then point out that signing a child up for kindergarten costs more than it does to sign up for university. Clearly, placing the cost of higher education at the top of the social struggle is at the very least dishonest.

Now, I'm no big socialist. I made my appeal to socialist values not because I am a socialist, but merely to show how absurd their position is even in regards to socialist values.

Regarding higher education, I fully admit that I disagree with the SBU concerning the role of higher education, and never agreed to the purposes of this strike (For my opinion on higher education, I urge my fellow classmates to read a short opinion piece by co-author of The Bell Curve, Charles Murray: linky). I also disagree with the authority the SBU has over a large percentage of students who are not part of the union, or who do not take part in union activity (like the elections), or who simply do not consider the people they chose to take care of organizing a fun Student Day or making sure they have cheap photocopy machines are necessarily the same people they chose to conduct a political struggle on their behalf with ideology taken directly from bumper stickers and talkbacks.

I then finish up with a note that we all agree the conditions of higher education in Israel aren't as they should be, but that we should have the courtesy to allow this committee to do it's job, and if we don't like the results (and if the government accepts it's results), we can always protest to it then and there.

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[info]the_arkitekt
2007-04-29 04:04 am UTC (link)
i dont...i can't...i can't...i... this is... i.

this is going to take some time.

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[info]telecart
2007-04-29 01:06 pm UTC (link)
hehehe, I wonder if it even shows you the proper characters on your screen.

See above reply for a translation. :)

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[info]ethan1701
2007-04-29 07:22 am UTC (link)
Very well put. It seems to me like the general attitude of those on strike is "yay, vacation!!1 (oh, and we'll deal with the lack of summer vacation when that comes 'round. worst case - another strike!)".
If people cared about their education, they'd spend this time studying on their own, and formulating peer2peer study groups. But they don't.
The student union doesn't realize its place in the economic balance against the Uni. A strike isn't the way to go. If anything, a consumer boycott, or at least a threat of one. The uni isn't going to give back any money they've already taken (Rule of acquisition #1), but could be leveraged by the prospect of lost future revenues.
Anyone showing "solidarity" to this cause, and who didn't vote at the elections, or work toward other causes, is (as you put it), a hypocrite.

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[info]telecart
2007-04-29 01:14 pm UTC (link)
Only about 8% of the members of the SBU voted in the elections, and most of the students in Israel are not part of the SBU anyway.

I'm part of it, because in Tel-Aviv University, if you're not, you have certain rights stripped away from you. Basically, for me it's like a costly lottery ticket for the chance to gain parking access within campus, nothing more. I do not vote in union elections.

I am not a socialist, and do not have these knee-jerk reactions to ideas of reform or "privatization" as they like to call it in the emails they keep sending us, as if privatization is such a bad word. I am not automatically against privatization in the market either, when done properly (Bezeq International was done properly. Hachsarat Hayishuv and Bank Hapoalim were done miserably, and Israeli Post is going in the same miserable thread, but this offtopic. Suffice to say privatization is a necessity in many markets and when done properly is very advantageous to the majority of consumer populace).

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[info]r1vethead
2007-04-29 06:59 pm UTC (link)
The Uni won't be leveraged by the threat of lost revenue because the majority of revenue already comes from the taxes levied from working people - but it's those same working people who the user-fee system disenfranchises, by disallowing their sons and daughters the ability to attend those institutions they are *already* almost wholly subsidizing.

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[info]telecart
2007-04-30 08:17 am UTC (link)
This might be the case in Canada or the United States, but that simply is not the case in Israel.
Do you know how much a years worth of University costs today in Israel?
8500 NIS. That's about 2000$USD, with average income somewhere around 7500NIS a month. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but that's about a tenth what you guys pay annually for school?

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[info]r1vethead
2007-04-30 09:03 am UTC (link)
you're wrong. in the US that is the case for the ivy league schools, but not the state-university system.

In Canada, the top universities, which are often higher-calibre than their US counterparts, cost about 2000 Canadian per semester for social sciences, etc. [varies on subject, of course]. so it's fairly in line with eretz israel. there is also huge inbcome disparity in israel -- and not just because of all the russian settlers trying to escape grinding poverty.

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[info]telecart
2007-04-30 09:27 am UTC (link)
Hmm. I distinctly remember checking out some non-Ivy League in the states and being shocked by how much they cost - but maybe that's just for international students.

2000 Canadian per semester
Here that'll buy you two semesters, so it isn't exactly in-line with Israel, not to mention:

varies on subject, of course
We don't have that.
Another odd cross-subsidiary that aforementioned committee already declared it would not touch.
Whether you study theatre or economics or medicine, you're tuition costs the same.
here is also huge inbcome disparity in israel
This is somewhat true, so perhaps a better figure than the average wage is the median wage - about 6700 NIS.

and not just because of all the russian settlers trying to escape grinding poverty.
I have no idea what you mean by that.




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[info]r1vethead
2007-05-01 01:34 am UTC (link)
well regardless, I don't think the tuition gap between Israel and Canada is broad enough to make an argument that the user-fee systems are set up for any different purpsoe than the one I have outlined - which is the contention which still stands.

What I referred to is Israel's practice of coazing impoverished russians to come over as settlers to bolster the population.

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[info]telecart
2007-05-01 06:42 am UTC (link)
the user-fee systems are set up for any different purpsoe than the one I have outlined

the point I was trying to make was not at all regarding the purpose of the user-fee system. I'll leave that to the conspiracy theorists.
My point is that Canada for example, is a rich country. It is by far a richer country than Israel, and it's even richer than Germany or France (who still do have free higher education - though not for long), so the case for dismantling the user-fee (and arguing it's purpose) is much stronger.
Israel simply is not as rich a country, and has a lot of unique expenses of it's own regarding security and such, so to argue that higher education here is expensive, or that it should become cheaper seems to me to be preposterous, and simply put, unrealistic.

What I referred to is Israel's practice of coazing impoverished russians to come over as settlers to bolster the population.
I wonder if this phenomenon is widely known outside the readership of indymedia. How many such people do you think Israel imports? millions? hundreds of thousands? Nevermind, don't answer that, it's completely offtopic anyway.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]tiushka
2007-05-02 09:41 pm UTC (link)
"....coazing impoverished russians to come over as settlers to bolster the population..." ...mmm....fascinating....indeed...

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[info]telecart
2007-05-03 10:15 pm UTC (link)
Don't encourage him, love ;)

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[info]tiushka
2007-05-03 11:05 pm UTC (link)
miss ya:).....have i told u, you r brilliant?

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Aww, now I'm blushing :)))
[info]telecart
2007-05-03 11:25 pm UTC (link)
Miss you too gorgeous :)


We should catch up sometime ..!

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Re: Aww, now I'm blushing :)))
[info]tiushka
2007-05-04 12:58 am UTC (link)
sure....next week..whether inside or outside the campus;)

(pray for me - today is my "Cogn. Psy moed b" day)

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Re: Aww, now I'm blushing :)))
[info]telecart
2007-05-06 12:59 pm UTC (link)
How'd it go..?

Friday I have Lemidafi alef moed b.. Eep.

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Re: Aww, now I'm blushing :)))
[info]tiushka
2007-05-08 08:04 am UTC (link)
a must mark is 86+)))) want some good summaries of lemidafi?

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Re: Aww, now I'm blushing :)))
[info]telecart
2007-05-08 08:27 am UTC (link)
eek! Hope you get what you need. Fecking Psychology. ARGH.

Thanks luv, I have more summaries than I'll ever get a chance to read...

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Re: Aww, now I'm blushing :)))
[info]tiushka
2007-05-08 08:41 am UTC (link)
gut)))) sending you some shihzur anyway

whistle (or how does it work with girls not pigeons?))))(if u want any coffee break (all yours till 16:30)(means, sms me)

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Re: Aww, now I'm blushing :)))
[info]telecart
2007-05-08 08:59 am UTC (link)
Thanks :o)

Gotta get ready for my limudey sadeh kid though maybe sometime next week?
xxx

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Re: Aww, now I'm blushing :)))
[info]tiushka
2007-05-08 09:11 am UTC (link)
aga)))

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[info]queenmab21
2007-04-29 07:32 am UTC (link)
נאמר יפה מאוד. חבל שלא היה לי את המכתב הזה כאשר קיבלתי כמה אימיילים לא נחמדים במיוחד מחברי לכיתה כאשר הצעתי להגיע ללימודים. לפחות נחמד לגלות שאני מספיק עשירה בשביל לשבת בבית, לנסות לשבור שביתה ולא להיות סולידרית, אה ובל נשכח שאני מנסה לפגוע במאבק הסטודנטים כולם.

אגב איפה אפשר להשיג את המאמר שציינת בתגובה שלך?

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[info]telecart
2007-04-29 01:17 pm UTC (link)
Of course, this is the real problem of higher education.
Talk of rights is cheap when you forget about the people who have the corresponding duty.

Here's the short opinion piece. Very illuminating.

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[info]radiantjelly
2007-04-29 10:44 am UTC (link)
תגובתי מתחלקת לשתיים

קודם כל שאפו על המייל. אני מזדהה עם המאבק נגד השביתה המטופשת

שנית, יבוא יום, ואני אראה אותך בטלוויזיה, או אקנה ספר שלך ואוכל לומר
i knew him when

*much love*

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[info]telecart
2007-04-29 01:18 pm UTC (link)
Hehe, thanks dear :o)

I could say the same..!

I guess when it comes from the heart, I become more eloquent than usual. I'm a good ranter, maybe I should write for you guys ? ;)

שי עצבני or something.

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[info]r1vethead
2007-04-29 03:05 pm UTC (link)
As someone who has been in two student strikes in Canada, I can definiately say the strike should be supported. The price of education determines the class basis of the entrants, and attempts to raise the cost have little impact on the bottom line, and are more about creating a nominal user-fee system that limits the lower-classes from participation. Let me take a stab here and say that most sephardim can't afford university.. ?

Anyway, I would say the strke should be fully supported - the students should be running hard pickets and setting up burning barricades at the entrance to campus [that's what we did!].

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[info]telecart
2007-04-29 03:28 pm UTC (link)
Lol, why am I not surprised this is your response..?

Ah, well, let me attempt a fair reply:

The price of education determines the class basis of the entrants
I disagree. Private universities are more than happy to spend their hard earned donation money on bright students from lower classes. This is why most scholarships have a socio-economic factor in determining eligibility.
Not to mention that I, for one, do not think the state should be robbing every working person of his or her money so that all my classmates have the 'right' to a higher education. As I've said before, talk of rights is cheap when you forget about the people who have the corresponding duty, and Israel is not a rich country like France or Germany or a few Scandinavian countries who can afford free school for all (in fact, large segments of Israel's population do not work at all, because they make more money not-working [or not working legally anyway] than they would if they had to compete in the job market). Even these European countries are beginning to realize the folly of free higher education, when the average BA in Germany takes eight(!!) years to complete. People take advantage of the system, and I do not think that the lower class are 'owed' this privilege.

The committee has already stated that it would only go forward with raising the cost of school if it would coincide with an interest-free student loan fund, repayable several years after graduation, and if universities are forced to spend more effort on fund-raising (which, comparable with the united states, universities here hardly do at all - and school here is still cheaper).


Let me take a stab here and say that most sephardim can't afford university.. ?
That is categorically false.

Anyway, I would say the strike should be fully supported
Again, colour me shocked ;) I'm sure you realize that few people hold your political position, yes?

I don't remember if I've mentioned this to you, but William Graham Sumner, a Yale sociologist, wrote an excellent book (in 1893!) about what social classes owe to each other. One of the chapters is about the forgotten men, those who have the duty to pay but are easily forgotten. You can get it here.
His opinions would today be categorized as politically incorrect. Luckily no such term existed in the late 19th century.

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[info]r1vethead
2007-04-29 05:59 pm UTC (link)
I disagree. Private universities are more than happy to spend their hard earned donation money on bright students from lower classes. This is why most scholarships have a socio-economic factor in determining eligibility.

You of all people should know this is a weak argument - scholarships are meant for exceptional cases, and are not indicative of the whole. This often comes back to the argument of "upward mobility" - overwhelmingly, because of the structure of the socio-economic system, upward mobility is a complete myth - it only exists in exceptional, and stastically insignifcant cases, and the same is true of scholarships being handed out to kids from working class backgrounds. It happens to a statistically insigifnicant portion, but for most the user-fee system puts higher education out of reach.

Not to mention that I, for one, do not think the state should be robbing every working person of his or her money so that all my classmates have the 'right' to a higher education.

Well the reality is that the user fees you pay for post-secondary education make up a very, very minor part of the budget. The overwhelming majority of post-secondary funding does come from government and tertiary sources already. The user-fees that are charged only serve the purpose of raising nominal income, and are more aligned to serve as a barrier to working class people who have higher merit than their wealthier counterparts from the upper classes.

Also, I don't think most working people consider paying taxes for things like education being "robbed". I think we ened to define what you mean by "working people" here. I mean the working class, and you apparently mean the wealthy elite. Two very different things.

People take advantage of the system, and I do not think that the lower class are 'owed' this privilege.

Taking extra time to complete university is a very minor form of "taking advantage of the system", compared to how the major financiers and industrialists take advantage of the system by using existing control of property and resources to extract labour from people. It's kind of wierd you would focus on such a minor example, and ignore the glaring contradictory examples that form the basis of class exploitation in society.

And in many ways you're right, the lower classes have to take this privilege, by force is necessary, and hopefully thats the awareness the strike creates!

As for the Sephardim not being able to afford university, I don't have any hard and fast stats on me so I won't argue the point, but am I to imagine you don't believe there is a class difference between sephardim and the European settlers currently occuping Palestine ["Ashkenazim"]?

The problem with the "duty to pay" is that it comes from noblesse oblige, the reality is that they derive their ability to pay from the exploitation of the people. Them "paying" is throwing the crumbs off their plate, and that's about all.

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[info]telecart
2007-04-30 09:11 am UTC (link)
Also, I don't think most working people consider paying taxes for things like education being "robbed".
Again, it's always a matter of who pays for whom. I do not believe higher education should be fully subsidized so that people who do not work will be able to live it up on my tax money doing 10-year-long bachelor's degrees, like in Germany.

By 'working people' I mean 'people who work'.

As for the Sephardim not being able to afford university, I don't have any hard and fast stats on me so I won't argue the point
Good, because you are uninformed.
This might've been closer to the truth if there weren't an immigration of about a million former-USSR jews in the 90s.
That isn't to say there aren't any differences between ashkenazim and spharadim, but ashkenazi jews are exceptional in that aspect in all societies they live in, not only in Israel. Many of the spharadim who first arrived here had a hard break, and the trauma of being exiled from their lands hit the first generation pretty hard. They weren't Zionists, everything was taken away from them, and they just had no place else to go. But I guess the same could be said about European holocaust refugees (or the 1948 Palestinian refugees for that matter), so, yeah, life was pretty shitty 2 generations ago.
However, Israel is a young state, and already intermarriages are quite common, so I imagine it's only a matter of a generations or two till any distinction evaporates entirely.

Let me close by saying that I do not think university should cost here what it costs in the states. People don't make here that kind of money. However, I do not believe university is for everyone, and government should be promoting vocational schools, not universities, as the cheap efficient method to gain credentials for the job market. With that in mind, a moderate raise in the cost of higher education, taking into consideration funding for the poor-but-gifted, is not a change I necessarily strive for, but I certainly won't be burning tires in the entrance to my campus because of it.

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[info]voidofher
2007-04-29 09:40 pm UTC (link)
that was really nicely written. and i agree with it.

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[info]telecart
2007-04-30 09:12 am UTC (link)
Thanks :)

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[info]little_october
2007-04-30 09:53 am UTC (link)
well put.
אני לא מבינה אם מישהו עדיין חושב שהשביתה הזו תועיל במשהו בכלל (חוץ מאולי להרוס את הסמסטר לכולם). עוד לא פגשתי סטודנט אחד שרוצה לשבות (אחי לומד הנדסת חשמל ואפשר לראות מיום ליום איך הוא עובר התמוטטות עצבים, ועד כמה שזה מבדר, החושים שלי בתור אחות מרחמים עליו), נראה כאילו חבורה מאוד מצומצמת של סטודנטים פשוט- כמו שאמרת- מחזיקים את כל השאר בני ערובה.
אבל הבעיה האמיתית היא לא הקבוצה הזו אלא המרצים- אם מרצה היה שולח אימייל לכל הכיתה, "אני מלמד מחר, בואו", היו באים. כי אף אחד לא רוצה שיבטלו את הסמסטר, ויש גבול לכמה יסכימו למתוח את הלימודים אל תוך הקיץ (אם בכלל.)

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[info]telecart
2007-04-30 11:05 am UTC (link)
תודה :)

המרצים לא צריכים לשלוח אימייל. לכל המרצים ניתנה הוראה כבר לפני מספר ימים להגיע לשיעורים, ואם יש תלמידים, אז ללמד. אם תלמידים יבואו, יתקיים שיעור, זה הכל.

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[info]little_october
2007-04-30 12:14 pm UTC (link)
באמת? והמרצים באמת מגיעים? ובאותו עניין, התלמידים מגיעים? (אתה הולך?)

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[info]telecart
2007-05-01 06:45 am UTC (link)
Dunno.. I hear the union bullies disrupt classes that do take place.

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[info]little_october
2007-05-01 07:32 am UTC (link)
terrorists. happy 1st of May!

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[info]telecart
2007-05-01 01:15 pm UTC (link)
Heh, I just saw Noar Oved youth movement kiddies marching down the street. I must say, it looked kinda sad.

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[info]little_october
2007-05-01 04:54 pm UTC (link)
אני הייתי בנוער העובד ><"

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[info]telecart
2007-05-03 10:20 pm UTC (link)
זה היה פשוט עצוב שזה היה רק הם.

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[info]little_october
2007-05-04 11:22 am UTC (link)
עד לפני כמה שנים גם בנק"י וכל מני קבוצות סוציאליסטיות \ קומוניסטיות\ אנרכיסטיות היו משתתפות בהפגנה גם, לא יודעת כבר מה הולך שם היום. אבל אם באמת כולם עזבו הגיוני שרק הנוע"ל ישאר, הם מסרבים לוותר.

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